Nintendo has had perhaps more ubiquitous influence on gaming than any other company: from refining and popularizing home console hardware, to helping develop the modern gamepad, to igniting the motion control craze, the Big N’s effects are seen and felt everywhere we look. Yet as of late, the Nintendo ship appears to have sprung a leak: 3DS sales are weakening in the face of stiff competition from consolidated devices as well as the PSVita’s release dangling tantalizingly before consumers. Wii sales have declined rapidly as the market reached near-full saturation, and the announcement of the Wii U was met with much skepticism, even from the company’s own fans. While Nintendo isn’t quite sinking, the danger has never seemed so imminent as it does now.

We at DeltaGamer love our games, Nintendo or otherwise. And the prospect of a gaming giant losing its way is always troubling, no matter what consoles we each prefer. We thought it a good time to sit down, pour the coffee (tea for our friends across the pond), and solve this the one way we know how: a duel to the death. When that became impractical, we settled for the second best option: a roundtable discussion. So sit down with us and join in on the gentlemen’s debate about Nintendo, the 3DS, the Wii U, and much more.

Kyle: Why don’t we start by revealing ourselves? Our biases, I mean. I grew up jumping back and forth between PC gaming on our Intel 486-powered machine and various Nintendo consoles. I wouldn’t consider myself a fanboy by any means, but I do have a soft spot for a few of the company’s franchises. That being said, the only current console I actually own is the Wii, while my PC keeps me occupied for more “hardcore” fare. I haven’t yet picked up a 3DS, but I’ll probably grab one at some point down the road now that the price is much more reasonable. What about you folks? Do you have any deep-seated love or hate for the Japanese gaming giant?

I’m someone who’s never really had much of a Nintendo tilt on my gaming life.Tom

Tom: I’m someone who’s never really had much of a Nintendo tilt on my gaming life. I’ve never liked Mario, which has always annoyed some people and the only Nintendo hardware I’ve been interested enough to own was the Gameboy for Pokemon and the N64 for Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. The latter two especially are two of my favorite games of all time and nobody can doubt Ocarina’s influence on the genre after its release. I don’t own any of the current Nintendo platforms because, I guess none of them have interested me enough to want to put my money down and I’ve always felt the software lineup was weak…at least in terms of the games I enjoy. So whilst it isn’t a hate for Nintendo, it’s certainly not a love either.

Kyle: No SNES? You truly have no soul. 

Tom: I always get that! My parents bought me a Mega Drive (Genesis) and so we had that, though a few friends had a SNES and we would trade for a while before swapping back. I did a lot of gaming on an Amiga back then, I never stopped playing Sensible Soccer, Dune 2 or Wing Commander on that…so that would probably explain some of it. I recognise the NES and SNES as great consoles, I’ve sought out ports of old classics, particularly the Zelda or Final Fantasy games, but I guess Nintendo just didn’t make its way into my consciousness as it did with so many other people.

Kyle: Kyle: Yeah, the kinds of people who have souls… 

Tom: Oh you… 

Miodrag: I got a Sega Master System II from my uncle when I was a kid, but was exposed to both Nintendo and Sega hardware via friends and arcades (which would require a lot of explanation as to how gaming in Serbia looked like in the ‘90s). I always liked Sonic more than Mario, so I’m aware I led a childhood of Sega fanboyism, but I never said no to playing a SNES or most Nintendo games save for Killer Instinct. I have committed the grave sin of not playing Ocarina of Time or Golden Eye, but I don’t really dislike Nintendo. I was, however, skeptical about the 3DS the moment it was announced, at which point I got accused of being a madman by a lot of forums I frequent.

Dustin: I’ve been a console gamer for 20 years now, and the bulk of that time has been spent on Nintendo consoles. I remember counting down the days until the release of the original Game Boy, and I’ve owned every console since, with the exception of the Virtual Boy, but who can blame me? In a weird way, it saddens me that there is a generation of gamers that didn’t have the opportunity to grow up with games like Super Mario 3, Earthbound or Aladdin on the Super Nintendo when it wasn’t a given that movie tie ins would suck. I’ve certainly been frustrated with Nintendo recently, but if anything, my history with the Big N has softened my cynicism, since when I think of Nintendo, I don’t think of Wii Party, and I feel bad for the people who do.

Tom: I would like to point out for posterity that Aladdin came out on the Mega Drive! I wore that cartridge OUT!

Kyle: With that out of the way, let’s talk about the Wii’s successes and failures. While no doubt a commercial smash hit for the first few years, I do feel it came at the cost of possibly betraying the trust of the company’s hardcore fanbase. Any thoughts on the long-term effects the venture into motion control and the casual market may have on the company?

Tom: I think you’re right. The Wii’s success was in the way it integrated casual gamers and introduced people to gaming who, typically, had not been exposed to it before. I think that did come at a cost to the “core” Nintendo audience. The Wii hasn’t had an Ocarina of Time, or a game like Goldeneye which really endeared it to gamers. Sure, it’s had a Zelda game, but Twilight Princess isn’t Ocarina of Time, I think if they had held back on Mario as well then they could have had a real riot on their hands.Motion control is all well and good, but it’s a gimmick and I personal don’t want that out of a console. I want a solid product with a great software lineup and whilst there are some great Wii games, the lineup can’t hold a candle up to the 360 or PS3. It all feels to me like a fantastic “fire and forget” strategy. I know so many people who own a Wii but never turn it on, they spent their money, played Wii Fit for a while or Wii Sports and then never turned it back on. It’s something I think Nintendo is struggling with now.

Dustin: I completely understand that type of thinking, but at least from a business standpoint, it’s pretty tough to find fault with how they’ve handled the Wii. I got one as soon as I was able to find one on a store shelf, and the lack of games has certainly been frustrating, but I guess I was able to appreciate what they were doing with the Wii, and I had enough to keep me busy on the PS3 in between first party Nintendo releases. My problem with Nintendo stems from what they announced at E3 this year, particularly the Wii U. We all knew a new system was on the horizon, and my biggest hope was that they would come out and say, “if you bought a Wii for the casual and fitness games, we’re going to continue to support the Wii with new software and gimmicky toys like the heartrate monitor, but we know the hardcore fanbase has felt left out, which is why we’re announcing…the Super Nintendo 2 or whatever.” Instead, we’re essentially getting an HD version of the same thing, with a controller that basically looks like an iPad and functions like a PSP.

Kyle: To be fair, it still supports the Wii Remote/Nunchuk combo as well as Classic Controllers, as far as I know. So it can be seen as a follow-up to the Wii in the same way the 360 was a follow-up to the first Xbox, with the exception of the one tablet controller per system. I expect a handful of fun, quirky third party titles, a few great first party games per year, and a bunch of half-hearted ports from the Playstation and Xbox platforms. Will it be enough? That I can’t say.

Dustin: I don’t doubt that the first party games they put out will continue to be good, but now that people are starting to grow tired of the Wii being dominated by shovelware and only receiving a couple first party games a year, it seems odd that they’re gearing up to do basically do the same thing again.

Well, after you’re a commercial smash hit for years, you will reach a point where you start hitting decline.Miodrag

Miodrag: Well, after you’re a commercial smash hit for years, you will reach a point where you start hitting decline. I mean, it’s how people say WoW is “losing subscribers,” but despite that, it has enough players to make other developers and publishers cry. It brought gaming to a lot of people who never bothered with gaming before, which is kinda a problem now since those people have probably gone to whatever is the new trend, like planking or whatever. It was a lack of foresight on Nintendo’s part, because the next generation won’t have most of those people participating, and they’ve alienated a lot of old customers. I think that’s why so many people are skeptical about the 3DS and haven’t bought it. They saw the Wiimote and were all “amazing!” After that they realized that the console was as much of a home to shovelware as Facebook with various junk apps. Now the 3DS is out and maybe others got the same deja vú as me, expecting history to repeat itself. I mean, after the Wii, and now the drama with the 3DS, why would I bother with Nintendo in the next generation? Or rather, the current one, as most Wii U announcements have been ports of games readily available on the two other consoles.

Kyle: I know we’ve got some Wii U discussion later on, but I gotta agree with the weak port announcements. It did seem like Nintendo was struggling enough with the Wii (and investors) that they had to announce something, and fast. So what do they do? Drop a bunch of big names–names of ports that may or may not exist, and will be out a year ahead of the Wii U itself.

Dustin: I liked that they announced a new Smash Bros. game, and then proceeded to explain that they hadn’t even started working on it yet. So basically they flashed all those game titles up on the big screen to remind people that they make games, not to actually announce anything.

Kyle: Yeah, it certainly reeked of desperation. 

Tom: The Wii was an undoubted commercial success, that’s without question, but I feel that we’re hitting the nail on the head here when we’re talking about a sense of uncertainty in the Nintendo camp at the moment. Things don’t seem as certain as they were two years ago…but I guess we’re moving onto that next.

Kyle: While the Wii was commercially successful, the 3DS has certainly had its share of troubles, at least early on. I’m of the opinion that it still has a chance to grow into a respectable gaming machine once a higher volume of quality software starts hitting store shelves. Still, it’s gotta hurt Nintendo to drop the price of its flagship handheld by almost a third within the first six months of its life cycle. Any thoughts on the 3DS and its struggles?

Dustin: Don’t put out a new console without games, it’s that simple, especially if you’re trying to sell a gimmick like 3D. Nintendo had the disadvantage of being unable to market the 3DS effectively, except to say “trust us, it works,” but we’re six months removed from release, and how many good games are there? How long did it to get the e-shop up and running? As far as I’m concerned, the 3DS is a perfect example of Nintendo’s arrogance right now. Millions of people bought Wiis, despite the lack of games and unproven tech, so now they think people will buy anything they create. Turns out, that isn’t the case.

Tom: I concur with Dustin’s “don’t put out a new console without games” sentiment. It won’t wash with consumers, particularly at the original price they had set. Ocarina of Time 3DS has literally been the only reason to own a 3DS for some time now and that game isn’t even new. The 3DS definitely works, I love picking one up at shows and seeing the 3D but…it needs software and when consumers can pick up their iPhone and buy a handheld game for $5, it just starts to unravel the whole 3DS concept…

Miodrag: I think the 3DS will struggle because it’s mostly new technology. To explain, it has glasses-free 3D, but it’s on a gimmick level at the moment, it’s not that amazing and it doesn’t work for everybody. Even the people who it works for turn it off after a while to conserve the battery or because they get a headache. Of course, someone has to take the first step. Sony does these things better planned. They invest in motion control, but they don’t focus solely on it or change their focus to it. They invest in 3D, but it’s an additional feature, it’s not what their systems revolve around. Now, it’s kinda ironic, but while Nintendo do invest in their tech (as proven by excellent first-party titles), third-party developers don’t. How many Wii games go beyond the waggle? How many 3DS games will go beyond the visual gimmick? Another problem is Apple with their handheld gaming, which has the advantage of actually having games that are playable on the go rather than miniaturized consoles. I’m not that sure about the 3DS doing well, but who knows? I suck at predictions anyway.

Dustin: I think that’s my favorite part of how Sony has handled the Playstation Move. It may suffer from a lot of the same problems as the Wii, and it may not have the Wow factor that Kinect has, but it’s almost never mandatory to use Sony’s motion controls. They get that some people just want to sit on their couch and play games, and as much as Nintendo is trying to cater to that audience now, they’ll never get them back as long as they’re forcing players to use the Wiimote, or this new tablet controller, for that matter.

Kyle: For what it’s worth, the Wiimote/Nunchuk combo is quite good for most platform games. The real problem is that so many developers feel they need to shoehorn motion controls into games that could do without.

Dustin: That’s true, in any given game, I don’t usually notice that I’m using the Wiimote/Nunchuck until I need to start whipping my arms at the TV.

Kyle: Looking ahead, the Wii U will pack a screen on the controller, as well as support for its predecessor’s Wii Remotes. I gotta admit my first reaction was akin to, “Huh?” After the shock wore off, I could see some cool uses for the thing, but I honestly fear the cross-platform porting barrier is going to be too much for most developers to overcome. That is to say, a few cool ideas will make their way onto the system, but the screen will become a forgotten add-on for most games, which will probably utilize it for nothing more creative than maps or inventory screens. What do you think about the Wii U’s chances of success against the 360 and PS3, as well as their unannounced successors?

Miodrag: I am pretty much in agreement. My first thought was that most developers would use it for nothing more than map and inventory screens. Which is a shame, but that’s at least what I expect based on Wii games. I am surprised they are sticking with the Wiimote. I am assuming most people think it’s an extension to the Wii because of the name and the remotes, but I am guessing they just adopted the remotes as their new controller standard, much like Sony uses the Dual Shock controller. The actual screen-remote-thingamabob is… I don’t know honestly. The use of freeing up the TV and playing on the actual remote sounds great, but then again, having one player use the “special” controller while everyone else resorts to mere Wiimotes? That’s bound to cause enough household arguments to make people want to play Monopoly. As for how it will fare against the competition, I don’t think it’s relevant what it does with the current generation, and based on the Zelda tech demo and the bird demo, I think the next generation of Xbox and Playstation will outperform it vastly. That’ll be a real problem not because graphics matter, but because we’ll have the situation where the Nintendo console isn’t powerful enough to run current gen ports. Same way the Wii had games ported to the PS2 and vice-versa.

Dustin: I’m not worried about the functionality of the new controller, since I thought the DS looked ridiculous, and it turned out to be one of Nintendo’s biggest successes. It’s a little more worrying to see that they don’t seem to know what to do with it. From the brief sizzle reel they showed off at E3, they showed people using the Wiimotes, the new controller, both of them combined, and meanwhile they’ve come out and said that you’ll never need to buy a second Wii U controller for any game, presumably because it’s going to be so expensive.

Kyle: Exactly this. I’ve said this before: lock a AAA developer into a room and force them to develop for the Wii U, and they’ll make magic with it. The problem lies in that developers aren’t going to take the time to come up with fun, innovative ways to use the technology–there simply isn’t enough return on investment for that. It makes far more financial sense to support most platforms equally, so I think we’re going to see a lot of maps n’ menus on the tablet screen rather than interesting gameplay innovation. It simply won’t be enough against the PS3 and Xbox 360.

Tom: I think I’m in agreement as well. What if you want to play a two player game, but you only have one of the new controllers – how is that going to work? They really haven’t done enough to answer those kind of questions and I think Kyle is right when he says that it makes financial sense to support most platforms equally – why develop extra functionality for the controller? Will many dev teams do this? I’m not so sure…

Dustin: My biggest concern isn’t how the Wii U will fare against the PS3 and 360, but how it will hold up five years from now, against whatever else is on the market. When they announced that the Wii U will be getting Arkham City next year, my head almost exploded, because that’s what Nintendo thinks they need to do to compete. As soon as the next generation of consoles comes out, Nintendo is likely going to be in last place in terms of graphics and hardware power, which isn’t the end of the world, but they need another reason for hardcore gamers to want to play their system, and offering third party games months after they’re released isn’t the answer.

Kyle: I’m not so sure that graphics and hardware are really that important; the most powerful consoles have rarely led the sales race for their generations. That said, I agree they need to get stronger third and second parties under their belts. A ton of developers paid lip service to Nintendo last E3, but those promises are no good until we actually see the games on the shelves as far as I’m concerned.

They need a third party developer to step up and replace what Rare used to be for them. Dustin

Dustin: They need a third party developer to step up and replace what Rare used to be for them. They have Retro doing a good job of updating existing franchises, but they need games that will make people rush out to buy their new system. A new Mario or Zelda game every five years isn’t enough.

Tom: Agreed. I mean, people love Mario but…haven’t we moved on a little by this point? Or am I being cynical? I mean…it’s 2011, how far can Mario take you?

Kyle: Though I agree on the third party support, I feel I’m in the minority when I say that Nintendo’s done pretty well managing their IPs. We’ve had three core Mario games for the Wii in four years, two Zeldas in five, plus the handheld entries. It’s not a Call of Duty-level of saturation, but it’s not a Valve-like seven year silence in between game releases. It’s just about right, and the games’ sales numbers reflect that.

Miodrag: I think they just needed better logistics to avoid the drought many Wii owners felt happened.

Kyle: Time to take a stand and predict the future. Five years from now, where will Nintendo be? A forgotten footnote in gaming history? Another Sega, pumping out Mario games for the Xbox and Playstation? Or will they turn things around and have another big hit with the Wii U and beyond?

Miodrag: I highly, highly doubt Nintendo will stop existing or be in near-ruin in five years. I don’t see that happening. This isn’t the first time they’ve made bad decisions. The Nintendo 64 used cartridges when they were obsolete, and they kinda helped Sony get into the gaming industry with the PSX. We’re still in the fallout period of their decisions regarding the Wii, so hard to tell whether the good outweighs the bad. I really don’t see them going away like Sega. Sega made much worse decisions and the Saturn was up against 3D graphics transition. Actually, that’s funny. The Saturn forced 3D titles despite being meant for 2D because of the graphics craze. I think the industry expected stereoscopic 3D to be a similar craze, but people aren’t biting that much when it comes to gaming, for various reasons. But I don’t think anyone can accurately predict the future five years from now. Nintendo themselves mentioned multiple times they’d eventually drop home consoles and focus on handhelds. Then the Wii happened and there was never any mention of it again.

Kyle: That’s a good point. So many analysts like to claim they know what the future gaming landscape will be in five or ten years, but there are trends going on today we wouldn’t have predicted 6-12 months ago, let alone in 2005 or 2006. Since that time, the Wii took off in an explosive way, and Nintendo “won” the console race for this generation–almost unthinkable after the stagnant sales of the Gamecube.

Five years from now, where will Nintendo be? A forgotten footnote in gaming history?Kyle

Miodrag: They’re going to have to play a lot of catching up, though. A lot of things they never focused on, like DLC and Online seem to be in the works for the Wii U. I think it mostly depends on what Sony and Microsoft pull off. If it’s just a hardware upgrade, then catching up will be easier. If they manage to blow everyone’s minds with new technology, it’ll be harder. But I don’t know what that could be other then life-like virtual reality or neuro-gaming. I mean, if the pinnacle of interactivity would be to remove the intermediaries like gamepads, they’d have to go in that direction with tech. That’s my guess why everyone’s going for motion controls and true 3D. The problem is, both are very clumsy at the moment. Motion controls are just as abstract as gamepad input, only less accurate. But consumers are a strange breed. I sure as hell remember when I thought Tekken 2 looked realistic and couldn’t imagine graphics ever looking better.

Dustin: Nintendo isn’t going anywhere, but they’re going to become increasingly irrelevant as an alternative to what Microsoft and Sony are offering, which is sad. Their track record with gimmicks is pretty good at this point, and they can afford to have 3D fail. I do think that they’re going to have a pretty rude awakening when they realize that all the old ladies and 8 year olds who bought a Wii are perfectly content playing Carnival Games and Wii Bowling, and don’t care if a new HD option is available. Maybe that’s what it will take to get Nintendo’s priorities straight again. There’s room for casual gaming and hardcore together, they just need to figure out what their unique contribution to both is going to be.

Kyle: Hey, don’t rag on Carnival Games… I have a friend who likes it. 

Miodrag: I recall Nintendo saying they used the Blue Ocean corporate strategy. It boils down to taking over markets that don’t exist yet, or creating them. (From what I gather. Here’s the Wiki for smarter people.) Maybe this is the backlash from it? Maybe there was a reason there was no market for what they initially succeeded doing with the Wii? It wasn’t sustainable. If that’s the case, they might want to work on their strategy.

Tom: Nintendo will continue to be a strong force within the industry. They’re a smart company filled with smart people. Like anyone, they can make mistakes. I could be totally wrong, the Wii U could STORM the hardware sales charts, or Nintendo could reveal a previously unannounced and game changing feature…I just think there’s an air of uncertainty there at the moment, and they’re trying to bridge the gap between the gimmick and the core audience. I’d say it’s more of a transitory period than anything else whilst they try and come up with the next innovation because that’s what they’re always trying to do – innovate. I just think the 3DS and the Wii U aren’t the correct ways to bring about that innovation.

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